Posts by Doug Mason

10

The end of the age or the end times what did the Bible writers mean?

by Crazyguy in

there are plenty of scriptures pointing to the idea that the end was near according to the scriptures way back then.

example at act chapter 2 peter states were in the last days, at 1john chapter 2 in the last hour.

jesus stated he would be back before some of that generation died and of course the famous quote 'this generation'.

Doug Mason

“As a work of prophecy, of course, Revelation is wholly and self-evidently wrong. ‘How long, O Lord, holy and true, until you judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?’ demands the biblical author, quoting the souls of the dead martyrs, and he answers his own question by attributing an unambiguous promise to Jesus Christ: ‘Behold, I am coming soon.’ (Rev. 6:10-11, 3:11, RSV) Those words were first reduced to writing nearly two thousand years ago, but the readers of Revelation are still waiting for the day of revenge that is predicted with such clarity and confidence in the ancient text.

“The author of Revelation is not the only figure in Christian scriptures whose prediction of the end-times was mistaken. Jesus, according to some awkward sayings attributed to him in the Gospels, assures his followers that at least some of them will see the end of the world with their own eyes. The apostle Paul, in turn, offered the same assurance to his generation of Christians. Both Jesus and Paul were gone by the time the author of Revelation set down his vision of ‘things which must shortly come to pass.’ (Rev. 1:1, KJV) All of them turned out to be dead wrong, and the world is still here. …

“More than a few readers of Revelation in every age, including our own, have thrilled at the idea that the end is near. Indeed, they are perfectly willing to overlook the plain fact that the world has not ended as predicted, and they persist in poring over the text of Revelation in a fresh attempt to figure out the precise date when it will. They have always been wrong, too, of course, but nothing has discouraged the so-called date setters who study the text, crunch the numbers, and come up with dates when the world must end. Not a single century has passed since the ink dried on the first copy of Revelation without some new prediction of the precise date when its prophecies will finally come to pass.” (“A History of the End of the World”, pages 13-14, Jonathan Kirsch)

27

The Watchtower Society is confused over its “Seventy Years” and "Seven Times"

by Doug Mason in

until now, the watch tower society [wts] has argued that the 70 years was a period during which judah was totally and completely depopulated.

for this reason, it constantly argued that the period commenced when the jews left judah and entered egypt.

jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (two months before october/tishri).

Doug Mason

They know they are telling the truth because they have to keep correcting themselves:

“Some have called Jehovah’s witnesses ‘false prophets’ because, in times past, they have viewed things a certain way and, later, have made a change through their official publications. Or, there may have been practices by some members in the organization that have been permitted to continue for a time for lack of knowledge as to how to handle these things, but later they have learned from God’s Word what his will is and have gone ahead and made the necessary corrections. False prophets do not correct themselves” (The Watchtower, June 1, 1967, page 331)

27

The Watchtower Society is confused over its “Seventy Years” and "Seven Times"

by Doug Mason in

until now, the watch tower society [wts] has argued that the 70 years was a period during which judah was totally and completely depopulated.

for this reason, it constantly argued that the period commenced when the jews left judah and entered egypt.

jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (two months before october/tishri).

Doug Mason

Fisherman,

You cannot imagine the smile you put on my face with your observation that WW1 started two months early. Maybe some can suggest here for the lurking Bethelites how to incorporate that fact.

At the moment, the WTS ends its "70 years" when Jews assembled at the temple site in the 7th month. Then they travel back over a period when they demand that Judah was totally depopulated. Using their hoped-for year of 537 they go back to the 7th month, when Jews left Judah and entered Egypt (not serving Babylon).

So, what criteria would they be prepared to drop to land on August 1, 1914?

In passing, I would add that while up to now they have waited until the land was (apparently) depopulated before starting their "70 years", the WTS is quite prepared to allow the returning exiles to be settled in their homes and then walk to Jerusalem before ending this period of "depopulation".

So, hopefully some can give the Writing thinktank a leg-up and solve this dilemma for them.

Or they could drop WW1 altogether, accept 587 and land on some part of their history when Rutherford made an announcement or released a book.

This should not be difficult since Jesus only told his disciples to watch out for deceivers and not be distracted at the stories of wars and so on they were hearing. He never mention whether the wars would be large or small, and so on.

Maybe I should stop trying to rescue them from their quicksand.

Doug

27

The Watchtower Society is confused over its “Seventy Years” and "Seven Times"

by Doug Mason in

until now, the watch tower society [wts] has argued that the 70 years was a period during which judah was totally and completely depopulated.

for this reason, it constantly argued that the period commenced when the jews left judah and entered egypt.

jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (two months before october/tishri).

Doug Mason

Greener,

In reading "Millennial Dawn" (which "dawned" in the 1870s) and the renamed "Studies in the Scriptures", be very aware of which printing you are reading.

For example, page 342 of Volume 3 (1902 edition) says gives the dimension as "3416 inches" (whatever a "pyramid inch" is) whereas the later 1924 edition has stretched the pyramid (in the sun?) to "3457 inches".

In the earlier version, Russell wrote: "1874 was the chronological beginning of the time of trouble" whereas the later editions changed this to: "1914 will be the beginning of the time of trouble".

I reproduce these pages and others at: http://www.jwstudies.com/Changed_MD_and_SS_words.pdf

My statement regarding Russell's dual "fulfilments" of 1914 (re Leviticus 26 and Daniel 4) refer to his article in 1876. See: http://www.jwstudies.com/How_Many_Mistakes_in_one_Paragraph.pdf

Doug

27

The Watchtower Society is confused over its “Seventy Years” and "Seven Times"

by Doug Mason in

until now, the watch tower society [wts] has argued that the 70 years was a period during which judah was totally and completely depopulated.

for this reason, it constantly argued that the period commenced when the jews left judah and entered egypt.

jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (two months before october/tishri).

Doug Mason

Greener,

There are so many issues related to this subject! Some I cover with Studies at: http://www.jwstudies.com/babylonian_captivity.html

Regarding Russell, he had two fulfilments with 1914.

(1) The "7 times punishment" of the Jews as predicted at Leviticus 26

(2) The "7 times" madness of the gentile nations, as predicted by Nebuchadnezzar's dream experience (Daniel 4) - the king of Babylon symbolised the mad state of the Gentiles whereas today the WTS says Nebuchadnezzar symbolises God's kingdom(!)

As a consequence, he expected that 1914 would see the end of gentile dominance and the restoration of the Jews to supreme dominance. Hence the organisation was "Zion's Watch Tower", meaning Zionism, literally. He gave several major speeches to Zionists, telling them they did not need to be converted to Christianity.

Doug

27

The Watchtower Society is confused over its “Seventy Years” and "Seven Times"

by Doug Mason in

until now, the watch tower society [wts] has argued that the 70 years was a period during which judah was totally and completely depopulated.

for this reason, it constantly argued that the period commenced when the jews left judah and entered egypt.

jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (two months before october/tishri).

Doug Mason

Prologos,

I quote:

“The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians”. -- “What Does the Bible Really Teach?”, page 217

“Jerusalem was destroyed in the year 607 B.C.E. That was the start of the “seven times.” (2 Kings 25:1, 8-10; Ezekiel 21:25-27)” -- “What Can The Bible Teach Us?”, page 217

Doug

27

The Watchtower Society is confused over its “Seventy Years” and "Seven Times"

by Doug Mason in

until now, the watch tower society [wts] has argued that the 70 years was a period during which judah was totally and completely depopulated.

for this reason, it constantly argued that the period commenced when the jews left judah and entered egypt.

jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (two months before october/tishri).

Doug Mason

Fisherman,

Broadly speaking, that is my understanding of what the WTS's position has been for quite some time: Jerusalem destroyed in the 5th month, then Gedaliah set up as governor; he is murdered; the last Jews living in Judah enter Egypt two months after Jerusalem's destruction. This exodus therefore occurs in the 7th month, which corresponds with October. When those Jews enter Egypt, the WTS starts its "seventy years" and its "seven times".

This is the methodology described in the October 1, 2011 Watchtower magazine.

These recent books I cited incorrectly state that Jerusalem was destroyed in the 7th month (October) and they contradict the previously held position by now stating that their time periods begin when Jerusalem was destroyed.

They do not know basis of their own foundation doctrine.

Doug

27

The Watchtower Society is confused over its “Seventy Years” and "Seven Times"

by Doug Mason in

until now, the watch tower society [wts] has argued that the 70 years was a period during which judah was totally and completely depopulated.

for this reason, it constantly argued that the period commenced when the jews left judah and entered egypt.

jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (two months before october/tishri).

Doug Mason

Until now, the Watch Tower Society [WTS] has argued that the “70 years” was a period during which Judah was totally and completely depopulated. For this reason, it constantly argued that the period commenced when the Jews left Judah and entered Egypt. The following comes from the recent October 1, 2011 Watchtower magazine:

“When did the land of Judah become desolated and unworked? … A Jewish revolt brought the Babylonians back to Jerusalem. (2 Kings 24:20; 25:8-10) They razed the city, including its sacred temple, and they took many of its inhabitants captive to Babylon. Within two months, “all the people [who had been left behind in the land] from the least to the greatest, together with the army officers, fled to Egypt for fear of the Babylonians.” (2 Kings 25:25, 26, NIV) Only then, in the seventh Jewish month, Tishri (September/October), of that year could it be said that the land, now desolate and unworked, began to enjoy its Sabbath rest. To the Jewish refugees in Egypt, God said through Jeremiah: “You have seen all the disaster that I brought upon Jerusalem and upon all the cities of Judah. Behold, this day they are a desolation, and no one dwells in them.” (Jeremiah 44:1, 2, English Standard Version) So this event evidently marked the starting point of the 70 years.” (The Watchtower, October 1, 2011, page 27)

Jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (Jeremiah 1:3; 52:12). Interestingly, the above passage from the magazine failed to include 2 Kings 25:3, which mentions that Jerusalem was broken into in the fourth month.

The WTS has always pointed to the seventh month (Tishri/October) as the starting point of its 70 years, given that it always started the period two months after Jerusalem was destroyed, relating this to the Jews’ exodus into Egypt. They have constantly said that this exodus into Egypt took place 2 months after Jerusalem was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. This is incorrect, as the two events are separated by at least 2 years, and possibly by 4 years.

(see my Study at: http://www.jwstudies.com/Did_Jews_exit_after_two_months.pdf)

Nevertheless, in its more recent publications, the WTS has thrown all of its arguments into confusion, saying that the “seven times” began when Jerusalem was destroyed.

“Jerusalem was destroyed in the year 607 B.C.E. That was the start of the ‘seven times.’” (“What Can the Bible Teach Us?”, page 217)

Jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (two months before October/Tishri). Or is the WTS starting the “seven times” of Daniel two months before the “70 years” of Jeremiah? Does Daniel at Chapter 9 say that this separation of the “seven times” from the “seventy years” was his “understanding of Jeremiah’s letter?

The WTS is absolutely incorrect when it says that Jerusalem fell in the seventh month:

“The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne.” (“What Does the bible Really Teach?”, page 217)

The diagram at page 216 of “What Does the Bible Really Teach?” shows Jerusalem being destroyed in the seventh month. That contradicts the Biblical account.

Maybe the Bible does “really teach” something.

A dose of confusion over the subject that is absolutely fundamentally significant to the WTS’s existence.

Doug

106

2015. Annual meeting

by obarac in

any news?

Doug Mason

Data-Dog,

You posed a question regarding "water baptism". First, it is not impossible that John belonged to a stict sect similar to the Essenes, where water purification played a part. But in answer to your question:

Jesus baptized -- John 3:26.

Doug

12

2015, Sept-Oct-Nov-Dec--Review Answer Sheets!

by Atlantis in

2015, september, october, november, december review answer sheets.. .. click the green download button.. http://wwwb.fileflyer.com/view/slgxfbi.

.. .. http://wwwb.fileflyer.com/view/6jvjra4.

petra!.

Doug Mason

Yes, the answers to my questions are available in quite a number of works written by Bible scholars.

Likely an easily read introduction is: "Who Wrote the Bible?" by Richard Elliott Friedman. It focuses primarily on the first five books, but it provides an insight into the religious politics of the time (centred around the neo-Babylonian Exile).

Reading on subjects such as the Deuteronomic History opens the world in which these writings were produced.

Jeremiah (and Baruch) promised restoration, but a few centuries later the Jews were still under the control of a foreign power. This caused the eruption of apocalyptic eschatology in the 2nd century; one of the writings produced during this period was the Book (scroll) of Daniel. It was a collection of myths and legends - many of which distorted the history of the time it is set in. It was not a prophecy but a writing for that immediate community. Hence its place in the Jewish (Tanakh) writings.

I must stop rambling on. Apologies.

Doug